There are also histories written just after the Tang Dynasty had fallen. It was considered good form for a new dynasty to write a historical review of the previous one, and there are two retrospectives on Tang, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Book_of_Tang
So the theory is bait, and hard to take seriously.
But I'll give it credit for hijacking a genuinely interesting scholarly premise: What is taken quite seriously is the notion that China's first dynasty -- the Xia Dynasty -- never existed. It is of rather mythic proportions; later Chinese would speak of Xia the way Romans would speak of Troy. And there is very little evidence to support its existence. The Shang Dynasty is also supported by rather scant evidence -- and is also mythic, though obviously less so than the Xia.
Worth noting that both the Xia and Shang are exceedingly ancient -- roughly 2000 BC to 1000 BC between them -- unlike the Tang, which fell around 900 AD and is thus middle-of-the-pack by Chinese dynastic standards.
senderista 21 hours ago [-]
The Shang dynasty is also kind of a propaganda nightmare, with all the archeological evidence for mass human sacrifice.
A_D_E_P_T 21 hours ago [-]
Yeah. You're probably familiar with the "Hanfu" revival -- a sort of resurgence in people adopting traditional clothing and makeup styles from the Han and Tang dynasties. It's entirely on account of the fact that those two dynasties were remarkably stable, prosperous, and peaceful, so they lend themselves to historical romanticism -- like the Chinese equivalent of the Renaissance Faire. Good vibes. Even popular in Japan, with e.g. The Apothecary Diaries and similar fare.
Shang, and all of the post-dynasty collapse centuries like The Spring and Autumn Period, were not great times to live in. Dismal and evil vibes, for the most part, unless you happen to be a mighty hero or bandit-lord who believes that he can conquer the age. Even so, most of them ended up in soup pots.
SllX 21 hours ago [-]
> Even popular in Japan, with e.g. The Apothecary Diaries and similar fare.
Notably the Tang Dynasty in China was concurrent with the Taika Reforms, Nara period & beginning of the Heian period in Japan.
A_D_E_P_T 21 hours ago [-]
And thus for a very long time, and even today to some extent, the Japanese (or their cultural theorists at any rate!) have viewed themselves as the inheritors of "true" Ancient Chinese culture -- unsullied by Mongol/Manchu/Communist influence.
There's some truth to this. The Japanese preserved certain Tang Dynasty customs which were lost to China, and they have some of the best collections of Tang-era artifacts.
This line of thought was, however, used in very unfortunate WWII-era propaganda, like "we have to invade China to rescue its civilization, only we can do this!"
geokon 18 hours ago [-]
In my experience the Chinese very much think this as well. Though it can be framed in a more derogatory way as "derivative" or "they just copied us"
I'd argue its difficult to find major aspects of Japanese culture that don't trace back to ancient China (maybe the language, eating raw food and sumo)
einichi 16 hours ago [-]
Shinto is a big one
IAmBroom 4 hours ago [-]
Sushi is exceedingly modern. It's "derived" from a fish preservation method... which relies on salting and fermenting, so not really "raw" (more like sauerkraut than shredded cabbage).
samudrijan 20 hours ago [-]
They resent our freedoms!
toast0 17 hours ago [-]
That was nice of them. I don't know if everyone would have sent them again!
That’s really interesting. Thanks for sharing. I’m a big fan of clothing and architecture that are appropriate/historic for a given country or area. It’s unfortunate we’ve standardized on 5-over-1s and graphic t-shirts with sweatpants/leggings over time instead of maintaining some of that cultural and location based uniqueness. I understand why we have changed our clothing patterns, but we did lose a little bit of something in that change, in my opinion.
EdwardDiego 21 hours ago [-]
Your comment sent me to Wikipedia and this caught my eye [0], a Late Shang inscribed rhinoceros rib, which then deepened the wikihole [1], it's funny how even though I know of the Indian rhino and Sumatran rhino, it never occurred to me that they were even more widespread...
Not exactly an issue though. Because the following Dynasty Zhou was portrayed as a protagonist, which rebelled against Shang and abolished human sacrifice and established the right Chinese civilization. And all the following dynasties are claiming that Zhou was the good old days and they are following Zhou's tradition.
Shang being an villain fits this narrative.
suzzer99 22 hours ago [-]
The Aztecs had the same mythical reverence for the Toltecs.
conmod278 18 hours ago [-]
There is a similar theory heavily contested in Indian History that the Vedic period never existed.
brightball 21 hours ago [-]
There are times I’m convinced that promoting the Mandela Effect is to enable stuff like this.
raincole 20 hours ago [-]
> What is taken quite seriously is the notion that China's first dynasty -- the Xia Dynasty -- never existed
There are some nuances about this. We know that there are multiple developed cities (and likely monarchies, given there are palace-like ruins) around or before Xia era. It's just that we don't know which one is so-called Xia Dynasty. But it doesn't meant that there were only small tribes and suddenly Shang came out of nowhere.
IAmBroom 4 hours ago [-]
It doesn't mean anything.
There were robber barons in early Norman England. It's just that we don't know which one is so-called Robin Hood... when in reality it's most likely just a pop myth.
scythe 21 hours ago [-]
>And there is ironclad evidence from foreign sources.
Including a rather unusual battle between the Tang Dynasty and the Abbasid Caliphate:
It's recorded that the Caliph, on hearing of the battle, said "What is this? A crossover episode?"
jmclnx 21 hours ago [-]
Everywhere in the Wikipedia articles is this phrase "had Han ethnic origins". Looks like China Editors are trying to change history. At least that is based upon what the CNN article is saying.
EdwardDiego 21 hours ago [-]
I spotted the same thing, and there's never a source given. Allegedly his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather (or 15th great-grandfather for short) was totally Han, the son of the scourge of the Xiongnu - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Guang
A timely reminder that, damn, China is olllldddd.
expedition32 6 hours ago [-]
For a few hundred years European archaeologist Indiana Jones types visited every remote corner of Asia ironically disproving Euro centrism and the Bible in the true spirit of scientific enlightenment and writing much of Chinese history (also looting some artefacts unfortunately).
One of the few good things to come out of colonialism.
otabdeveloper4 14 hours ago [-]
> A timely reminder that, damn, China is olllldddd.
China proper starts about 1000 BC, so China is quite a bit younger than Europe. (Whatever "Europe" is.)
irdc 8 hours ago [-]
If you define Europe as Sumer or Egypt, then yes. If you define Europe as Rome, then no. The earliest deciphered Greek writing dates from 1450 BC (Linear B) but that civilisation fell in the Bronze Age collapse and there is no (written) continuity with Europe as it stands today.
As far as I'm concerned we're all equally ancient descendants from LUCA.
You have introduced a comparison, which thus begs the following questions:
1. What is the event that defines "China proper"?
2. What is the event that defines "Europe [proper]" to you?
jmclnx 5 hours ago [-]
We need to define "older". All areas are old, but it is history that can make one area seem old. Of course I am ignoring Africa, the oldest of all in Human History.
I think this thread is referring to record keeping. In Europe and especially in the mid-east, when an area was conquered, seems the trend was to destroy written records.
I think when that happened in China, a lot written records survived, so it has the appearance of being older.
insane_dreamer 15 hours ago [-]
The Xia and Shang dynasties are necessary to exist in order to maintain the story of "5000 years of Chinese history" that is ingrained into Chinese students and repeated to anyone who will listen
YackerLose 20 hours ago [-]
>So the theory is bait, and hard to take seriously.
There are people who believe that Trump won in 2020, that vaccines cause autism, and that the Holocaust is a hoax. You cannot reason people out of an idea they didn't use reason to arrive at.
readthenotes1 8 minutes ago [-]
Many of the people I know that believe odd things do use reason, but they only accept certain things as facts and discard other things as dysfactual.
Sometimes the things they accept is facts are merely delusions, of course, but that doesn't mean they don't reason. It just means that their reason is based on delusions.
Otoh, I also have met a number of people that when you ask "because why" freeze up as they simply have no basis at all and don't understand themselves why they came to hold a position.
And we can't forget that wood and witches are the only things that float because Science.
throwawaythekey 20 hours ago [-]
The majority of people don't reason themselves into anything, whether it's the mainstream view or the conspiracy.
There's just a substantial bias where people assume all 'new knowledge' is wrong. Probably correct most the time, but still often wrong.
MelonArmiger 13 hours ago [-]
My favorite conspiracy of the moment is that Trump won in 2020 and lost in 2024, but they switched them because he needed more time. People truly are regrettable.
Apocryphon 21 hours ago [-]
Every ancient empire did this with their primordial beginnings, from Romulus and Remus to Izanagi and Izanami.
readthenotes1 14 minutes ago [-]
The Tang Dynasty is hardly primordial though.
Apocryphon 13 minutes ago [-]
I was referring to the Xia, the mythical precursor/founding dynasty.
stvltvs 4 hours ago [-]
Hengist and Horsa
ajross 17 hours ago [-]
> later Chinese would speak of Xia the way Romans would speak of Troy
Troy was indeed largely fabricated though! Really I think that's of a piece with stuff being, y'know, really old. There are big holes in Sumerian and Egyption history too (though the latter helped out a ton by digging secret tombs and hiding them really well). Post-classical Mayan history is pretty suspect in a lot of places, etc...
Its just as silly as phantom time and covers almost exactly the same period. The motive is possibly racist which makes it more sinister.
guyzero 22 hours ago [-]
Back in the early 2000's, well before most social media sites existed, I had a coworker who shared with me a number of questionable theories, one of which was basically this. He also believed very passionately that plate tectonics was wrong. Unfortunately social media didn't invent brain worms.
4 hours ago [-]
NotThatFast 20 hours ago [-]
Was he reading Neal Adams?
I have to admit - Expanding Earth is hard to debunk!
I think because like Flat Earth many of the observations and elements therein are accurate - they just get the overall picture wrong.
Like stealing the ball with 4 sec left running down the court no defense in sight for the winning layup and missing - comically bouncing off the backboard.
Alas, I believe most crackpots mean well, they just aren’t very good at the sport
ecshafer 20 hours ago [-]
Many of the more esoteric conspiracy theories are hard to debunk. Lets take the earth if round, prove it. You can bring up many cases, sails disappearing behind the horizon, goemetry, etc. but actually doing these measurements and calculations cold is pretty hard. And whenever you bring up a fact, they will dismiss it out of hand. Tectonic plates, I believe they exist, I have seen the evidence in books. But I doubt I could prove it, I've never really studied geology or anything like that. And if I were to debate someone who believes they weren't real, I would probably lose as they would bring up obscure papers, incidents, etc. which I wouldn't be able to refute well.
jonhohle 19 hours ago [-]
I was recently in Hawaii on Kauai. I wondered if I could see any of the other Hawaiian islands (besides the small local ones). Can you see Oahu from Kauai (70 miles away)? Rarely, and only if you get to a high enough elevation and even then you can only see the highest peaks. On the other hand, Maui is easily visible from Hawaii from sea level. Simple, practice, repeatable.
Likewise, flying in a plane for any distance and seeing the course is identical to if you pulled a string tight against a globe (give or take). I suppose pilots could choose to fly in an arch to keep the secret, but eventually some capitalist has got to spill the beans to cut costs, right?
Also: the southern hemisphere.
jurip 16 hours ago [-]
Conspiracy theorists can also be really into their stuff. Someone who believes the moon landings never happened and who is enthusiastic about that can probably recall a huge number of facts, whereas I can't even recall the years the flights happened, or the names of more than two of the astronauts. That stuff is just pretty irrelevant to a random member of the general public.
colechristensen 19 hours ago [-]
You don't particularly need calculations, just have friends around the world or even a couple hundred miles away, get on a video call to prove the world is round. Whatever your pet theory of how the sun moves across the "flat" earth can be contradicted with a couple of facetime calls.
ericmay 19 hours ago [-]
I’ll do you one better, you shouldn’t even spend any time engaging in a debate with people who believe the earth is flat because they don’t want to change their mind.
It doesn’t really matter if the earth is flat or not, for them it’s about being part of a community of people who believe in something that society tells them is wrong. There is no changing minds besides the 1 in a million you hear about and so all the calculations you could do would never work, sadly.
graemep 10 hours ago [-]
No but its nice to do relevant observations of basic science yourself. Its fun and satisfying.
My daughter did the shadow stick experiment when she was 14 (for GCSE astronomy), we have lived in different countries so have observed the differences in constellations for ourselves, and we speak to people around the world anyway.
colechristensen 17 hours ago [-]
If you're so disinterested why are you talking about it now? Better to focus your attention on something you're not going to be so dismissive and negative about unless your hobby is being an asshole.
ericmay 17 hours ago [-]
I was just browsing comments and read yours and thought it prudent for others to realize what they were dealing with when it came to flat earth theorists so that they protect their time. I’ve probably at this point already saved dozens of seconds for someone.
rsynnott 21 hours ago [-]
Plate tectonics was super controversial at one point. Would be a common one for conspiracy theorists of a certain vintage.
EA-3167 21 hours ago [-]
Social media gave a geographically distributed population of the “quirky” and their natural predators the grifters a chance to mingle on a global scale. It didn’t invent anything, but it’s a vector for the pathogen.
emmelaich 17 hours ago [-]
There were plenty of conspiracy sites pre-2000. I think a lot of them shared mindspace with USA late night talk radio. Also, usenet.
NoMoreNicksLeft 21 hours ago [-]
Depending on how much older he was than you at the time, he might genuinely have been taught in high school that this was wrong. Only in the early 1970s did that even start to gain traction. If he was taught by one of the hold-outs that esteemed a pre-tectonics geologist, it'd be pretty natural to think like that I imagine.
guyzero 21 hours ago [-]
oh he understood what plate tectonics was proposing very well, he just completely rejected it in favour of many distributed prehistoric oceans and a lot (a LOT) of erosion. It was weirdly congruent to phantom time theory.
hudmal 14 hours ago [-]
Okay. Look at the moon. Look at every other planet not currently protected by an atmosphere. They all have craters. This fact is ignored by rote Geologists. "All the high and low points on the planet are due to plate tectonics and erosion!"
doginasuit 21 hours ago [-]
Maybe it is healthy for society in the long run to have pockets of divergent belief. Most of the time it is groundless and fades away. Every so often it gains traction. If it is based in reality, we gain a better understanding. If it is misleading, it vitalizes a competing and more correct understanding.
The more interesting phenomenon is that we are able to agree on anything at all, it's not exactly our strongest instinct. Reading through HN, for example, the longest comment chains are a series of disagreements. But we build resources like Wikipedia and science journals, which also use disagreement as an engine for generating a more correct understanding. Its a strange and hopeful aspect of human societies.
MBCook 19 hours ago [-]
How could it be healthy to not even agree on the most basic facts of history like whether hundreds of years actually happened or the shape of the earth?
doginasuit 6 hours ago [-]
I don't think these particular fringe beliefs are directly useful, and they have a real cost in terms of confusion. I also don't expect them to last since they are easy to disprove.
But they belong to a bigger trend which questions the value of experts and institutional knowledge. This could either send us into a dark age, or challenge a better class of experts and institutional knowledge. My money is on the latter. Few things improve without some kind of challenge.
macintux 18 hours ago [-]
That’s why I’ve lost much of my optimism regarding U.S. politics.
It’s fine, and healthy, to disagree on how best to deal with the world as it exists, but if we can’t agree on reality itself, compromise and progress are so much more challenging.
edgyquant 17 hours ago [-]
Does this stuff really matter when you get down to it? How much does it being true or false change the average persons daily life?
j4yav 14 hours ago [-]
Eventually the misinformed mob gets together and elects an RFK jr type.
libertine 12 hours ago [-]
Oh boy... I think you will find the answer in George Orwell's Animal Farm.
But to help you understand, rewriting the past to sustain power is the type of thing that degenerates into genocide for example.
In the short term it might look innocuous, but if corrupting truth and suspend basic moral and ethic values on something as basic as History, what other basic human values are you willing to suspend because you don't like how something feels?
This is the breeding ground for racial supremacists, ethnophobia, etc. Terrible stuff.
And you don't need to go into the past to see the consequences, Ukraine is fighting for their existence because a group of people in Russia don't want to acknowledge that a ethnic group they deem inferior can have better chances at thriving than them, to the point of denying Ukrainians existence all together.
dualvariable 15 hours ago [-]
No, it is literally a russian propaganda method.
Spread flat earth theories, get influencers to question if sunscreen is actually harmful, etc. Spread enough contradictory information so that gradually, people don't have any idea what to believe, and then they become susceptible to political misinformation, or just become completely politically disengaged.
It is not a sign of a healthy society at all, it is a disease.
otabdeveloper4 14 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
Tuna-Fish 5 hours ago [-]
People have been pointing out that various european fringe groups got funded by Russia for a long time. Like, they have actually been caught at it. I always thought it was a weird theory, why would they even bother?
That was until the morning after the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia. Because that morning, a huge proportion of the most popular european conspiracy, anti-vaxxer and alt-right twitter accounts started pushing the same 5 kremlin talking points. It was way too crudely done to be organic, they had clearly received their marching orders.
kelipso 1 hours ago [-]
“Talking points” for one man is simply the truth for another man. When you look at everything through a conspiracy lens, eventually the truth can become “talking points” and you end up in an island of delusion (I hope everyone still remembers the “vibecession” we had…, the inflation is not real actually, etc etc).
We seriously need to evaluate this “talking points” accusation lol. Propaganda accusations in general, they’re mindless and kills actual discussion.
Tuna-Fish 27 minutes ago [-]
No I mean literally a specific set of iirc 5 points, that none of them had ever used before, that they all did with very little variation, at the same time, one morning. They didn't all just independently end up with the same subjects they needed to talk about at the same time.
It made lots of people who had previously believed in their bullshit wake up and take notice.
gmerc 18 hours ago [-]
One look at what’s happening with vaccines and you’re disabused of healthy. It’s not. it’s insanity
mc32 17 hours ago [-]
It's a shame people are drifting from vaccines but the unwillingness of the WHO, etc., to backtrack on claims that turned out false with respect to Covid, does not help the cause. The sausage-making history that's coming out from Covid is also making people suspicious and one cannot blame them.
Additionally, they've redefined that a pandemic is (removing severity from the definition), additionally it's expanding way from its traditional geopolitical framework and also what were recommendations are now becoming legally binding mandates that supersede sovereignty.
So, yes, people are overreacting but the WHO and people who suppressed truthful but contrarian claims during the pandemic, share some of the blame.
dualvariable 15 hours ago [-]
> Additionally, they've redefined that a pandemic is (removing severity from the definition)
2009 pandemic H1N1 was not severe, and was called a pandemic.
AlexCoventry 15 hours ago [-]
> Additionally, they've redefined that a pandemic is (removing severity from the definition)
Over a million Americans died, but OK, that's not a severe problem...
hnedeotes 14 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
hnedeotes 13 hours ago [-]
Why the downvotes but no argument? Aren't those reasonable questions? I didn't even mention the medical guidelines that came out during that period?
All I wrote is verifiable (or was)
smackeyacky 11 hours ago [-]
It’s well documented that the handling of dead bodies at the time was relegated to temporary facilities due to the increased volume.
cosmicgadget 15 hours ago [-]
> legally binding mandates that supersede sovereignty.
What jurisdiction and enforcement mechanism?
Tuna-Fish 22 hours ago [-]
The version I've had argued to me didn't change any chronology, they just insisted that the Song dynasty started earlier so the Tang shouldn't be counted.
The context was weird, the person pushing it was very passionate about the subject, and since I certainly don't know all that much about Chinese history from the period, I just smiled and nodded. Apparently this is a bigger thing?
1-more 22 hours ago [-]
Not to be confused with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_chronology_(Fomenko) which I thought was the same as this but actually compresses a whole lot more time into less than 1000 years and does word magic to imply that King Solomon = Suleiman the Magnificent.
nl 19 hours ago [-]
Yes I was going to point to the Fomenko chonology too. I believe that has adherents in some minor Russian nationalist circles:
> In September 2020, major Russian politician and academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences Sergey Glazyev publicly proposed Fomenko's New Chronology as a "reliable support for the formation of modern ideology that consolidates Russian society"
"A reliable support for the formation of modern ideology"? That pretty much screams that any connection with the truth is... optional. It's not being considered on grounds of truth, but on grounds of being good for ideology.
nl 18 hours ago [-]
Well... yes.
I mean it's a nationalist ideology - any connection with reality is coincidental.
graemep 10 hours ago [-]
I knew about the Tartarian Empire theory but not Fomenko's new chronology.
its amazing, and one of the most thorough and clever conspiracy theories and it has no lack of scope and ambition. Jesus was made up based on a 12th century Byzantine Emperor is almost as good as Suleiman being Solomon, and lots of otherwise reasonable seem very ready to believe conspiracy theories about Jesus (Dan Brown made a lot of money out of people who thought the Da Vinci Code theories were plausible).
Kasparov was a proponent!
riffraff 21 hours ago [-]
I was going to say that it seems the equivalent of the "Belgium does not exist" meme (ante litteram) from a few decades ago.
culi 22 hours ago [-]
And it's taken about as seriously as "birds don't exist" or "the earth is flat". CNN is just doing straight up orientalism. Exoticizing a normal aspect of a culture that if you think hard enough happens in western cultures just as often if not more
reaperducer 21 hours ago [-]
CNN is just doing straight up orientalism
If you actually read the article, you'd be directing your vitriol at the Nanjing Daily and "The Paper, a media outlet affiliated with the Shanghai government."
8 hours ago [-]
tialaramex 21 hours ago [-]
AIUI the Conspiracy Theory isn't that birds don't exist, but that they are not real. All the birds you've seen were actually government spy cameras.
This feels more plausible if you've only ever encountered pigeons and at some distance. If you've owned a parrot or some chickens, it is very apparent that this is not a spy camera. In fact the word I'd use for chickens is "saurian". They're clearly just lizards with feathers, if I didn't know their evolutionary story it would still scream at me when I see one laying on a rock in the sun that this is a lizard.
Apocryphon 21 hours ago [-]
Since it's popular among youth on social media, maybe this is like Helen Keller skepticism?
The video of the girl crying about Hellen Keller being fake was hilarious regardless of how true or not any of it is
NotThatFast 20 hours ago [-]
I just read the theory and I’m now a believer.
It’s only 1729! Let’s goo, I mean:
Come on ye lads!
21 hours ago [-]
wongarsu 22 hours ago [-]
That wikipedia page lists four points speaking against the phantom time conspiracy, and in those four points relies on the Tang dynasty twice. Which doesn't exist. Checkmate /s
anigbrowl 22 hours ago [-]
The same sort of arguments are playing out in the US, albeit on a shorter timescale. I couldn't say when it started, but it's extremely depressing that the history section in most general bookstores is just a locus for narrative warfare rather than scholarship.
Of course, this phenomenon is by no means unique to these two countries. I know a Japanese author who has a small but dedicated following for his argument that nuclear weapons don't exist: https://books.google.com/books/about/Death_Object.html?id=Mw...
talon8635 21 hours ago [-]
I’ve read plenty of good history/biography publishing in the past 50 years right up to last year. I’m not sure I understand your claim.
Narrative warfare… I guess the question is, what isn’t “narrative warfare”?
PalmPilotProMax 14 hours ago [-]
I have a theory that "narrative warfare" doesn't exist, and it's all just faulty emanations of the single truth from the primordial creation blasting into our craniums in haphazard and mutually contradictory ways.
I'll write a book about it. See you in your local bookstore!
AlexCoventry 15 hours ago [-]
Dispassionate search for and representation of truth?
MelonArmiger 13 hours ago [-]
"Truth" doesn't exist outside of social construction, which is performed through narrative warfare, so in fact you want what you already have.
AlotOfReading 22 hours ago [-]
I get what you mean that pop hist. books aren't academic, but "narrative warfare" describes a huge proportion of historical scholarship. Whether or not you agree with it, that's the whole point of Metahistory and the linguistic turn.
kjs3 19 hours ago [-]
No atom bomb. Wow...that some nearly Shockley levels of 'engineers disease' right there.
Edit: clarified which part of the post I was referencing.
Apocryphon 21 hours ago [-]
What's his explanation for what happened? iirc, immediately after Hiroshima the survivors had thought the Allies had used some sort of fuel bomb.
Aside from the poor choice of background color. ;)
snapetom 20 hours ago [-]
I encourage anyone browsing through this to read that link. It gives insight on what many Westerners have no visibility into - how many Chinese view the Qing dynasty, which was romanticized by Spielberg's Last Emperor. More importantly, it's a clue on why China is fervently cracking down on this.
If you search on Google, there's a slew of Chinese restaurants in the US named "Ming Dynasty." If you were in the SF Peninsula in the 80's and 90's, the one on Embarcadero and 101 drew well known chefs from Hong Kong during its heyday. Conversely, Google knows of two "Ching" or "Qin Dynasty" restaurants in the US. Many Han Chinese have always looked down on the Ching Dynasty as illegitimate colonialists.
This particular issue is a sore point with the CCP with respect to Hong Kong. During the crackdowns in 2019, mainland propaganda justified the crackdown as de-colonization. They called the British takeover an invasion to force subjugation through mass drugging (opium).
In response to this, many protestors appealed to Han-centrism. They argued that the Ching were already an illegitimate colonizing force, and blame them for everything that led up to Western colonization. This includes everything from weakened military might to failed trade/war negotiations, to anti-opium crackdowns. If the British broke in, it's because the Manchus left the door open. And by legitimizing the Ching Dynasty, you have an indirect trail of responsibility to the CCP themselves.
This Hong Kong link is why this Tang issue is not a joke to the CCP.
Final note because I have to pre-emptively address this on social media: If you feel like you need to jump in with a generic anti-colonial comment, don't. Hongkongers' views of being British subjects, especially from 1970's on, should absolutely not be seen through Western, especially modern progressive PoV. TL;DR - the majority, often vast majority, of Hongkongers wished to remain under British rule.
YackerLose 20 hours ago [-]
"The negationist proposition, in the age in which it is being advanced, cannot therefore be truly denied, since everything, all of us, including those who reject it, have passed over, whether we like it or not, into an age where there is no longer any objective recourse. The proposition, therefore, can be rejected only by a kind of mirror denial. And that is where its victory lies - though in fact it is not its victory, but the victory of real time over the present, over the past, over any form whatsoever of logical articulation of reality." - Jean Baudrillard
IncreasePosts 20 hours ago [-]
When was there an age where there was objective recourse? I guess when we could burn people for heresy?
raajg 19 hours ago [-]
I'm currently reading 'There Is No Antimemetics Division' and this news item reminds me of that. Also, 1984, in which the government actively establishes false narratives as actual history and do it so many times that it's impossible to remember what really happened.
JennyWeston 21 hours ago [-]
Tang Dynasty -- isn't that a band which introduced heavy metal to China in the 90's?
That said, plenty of Chinese people genuinely believe Chinese civilization has been the most advanced since antiquity, and that the sophistication of ancient Greek and Western civilization should be questioned.
AlexCoventry 16 hours ago [-]
The Economist had a similar article [1] about Han chauvinism leading to rejection of the Qing dynasty, and causing quite a headache for the CCP.
> In China’s official narrative, the country suffered a “century of humiliation” of foreign invasions, starting with the first opium war in 1840 and ending only with Mao’s rise to power in 1949. But the 1644 view—cheekily expressed by some online as “three centuries of humiliation”—argues that subjugation began with the Qing. According to this school, the Qing were anti-Han interlopers and, making matters worse, feckless in repelling foreign forces.
> Dredging up all this history is uncomfortable for the party. The territorial boundaries claimed by modern China—including Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Taiwan—were brought into the Chinese empire by the Qing, not the Ming. Grievances about the Manchus also cut against the ideal of ethnic harmony advanced by the party. Although much of what forms modern Chinese identity is derived from Han traditions, it is unseemly to talk openly about the dominance of this one ethnic group, which accounts for 90% of the Chinese population. The party looks askance at “Han chauvinism”, believing, with reason, that it may lead to more resentment from non-Han groups.
What kind of phenomenon are we dealing we here with, though? How does it compare to our varieties of:
- birds aren't real
- Flat Earth
- Atlantis (did Plato made it up or not?)
- years 800-1000 were completely made up so some guy could be crowned king in the year 1000
- DNA evidence shows ancient Egyptians are Eastern Europeans
nirui 13 hours ago [-]
> The outlandish claim has since spread far and wide
Is this significant? I never saw anyone talking about it on my side of corner.
But, It's not really that surprising. A significant part of human civilization still believes that we humans were created by beings who live somewhere in the sky/atmosphere, and these beings are watching our every move to punish or reward us, and you beg really really hard, they'll help you (if they didn't, you ain't begging hard enough).
EdwardDiego 21 hours ago [-]
What's interesting is that if you read Wikipedia, there are multiple (without sources, mind) sentences going "btw Li Yuan was totally Han via an ancestor 17 generations previously".
So clearly this is rather important to some people.
singularity2001 9 hours ago [-]
Some also claim that bronze metallurgy wasn't brought together with the horse, sheep, cattle and chariot from the west.
deepsun 22 hours ago [-]
> a history influencer named Qiao Yu
I assumed that any "influencer" could be easily googled, but I cannot find literally anything. Or Google censors their name?
shakna 22 hours ago [-]
There's two characters missing from the middle of the name.
Not sure how HN's symbol stripper handles them, but here's a try:
qiao乔于yu
curuinor 22 hours ago [-]
probably not their actual name. if you need a search term, qiao乔于yu is better than qiao yu. better read chinese. they've long deleted the actual video, of course
deepsun 22 hours ago [-]
Or the whole thing is an "inverse" PR, completely manufacturing the information spread, to get people interested in Tang dynasty.
Conspiracy vs. conspiracy.
garbawarb 22 hours ago [-]
If Tang Dynasties are real, why haven't I seen one?
rnd0 22 hours ago [-]
I had Tang every day with lunch when I was a kid. But it was the seventies so there's that ...
yesco 22 hours ago [-]
Because they aren't and never have been! This has been scientifically proven from the astrological data according to my sources.
ForOldHack 22 hours ago [-]
They made orange drink powder for the Apollo Missions. I KID YOU NOT!
SlightlyLeftPad 22 hours ago [-]
Oh so you’re saying that’s what happened to the Tang dynasty and this is just a huge coverup.
Apocryphon 21 hours ago [-]
The Moon landings invented the Tang dynasty
MelonArmiger 13 hours ago [-]
The rise of historical nihilism is why we need new algorithms that can tell true from false. Human moderators simply can't manage the scale and volume of modern communication.
alsetmusic 20 hours ago [-]
> Callum, a 24-year-old Beijing resident, told CNN that questioning the Tang’s existence could be a way to rebel against established wisdom and a way for China’s young – faced with a slowing economy and greater competition for jobs and resources – to criticize authorities.
> “It is a way for people to attack the established authorities. It is almost like saying ‘those so-called experts are nothing special. They have all been misleading people. I am the one who understands the truth, and I have exposed them all.’”
Depends on how much you think people actually believe Qanon. This is "We're going to raise a middle finger to the authorities in a form that's hard for them to come down on us, but it's very deliberately against the authorities." Qanon may have been that, too, but my impression is that at least some people really believed it.
kube-system 19 hours ago [-]
That’s exactly the same as what is happening here. They’re ideas crazy enough that most people react with “you’re fucking with me, right?” And some people definitely are… but there’s always a cross section of people gullible enough to believe it wholeheartedly, and a large grey area in the middle of people who aren’t sure what to believe.
They say a lie can travel around the world while the truth is still lacing up its boots. Part of the reason these things are viral is because their ridiculous nature demands attention. And that attention alone is enough to generate influence.
thataccount 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
AnimalMuppet 17 hours ago [-]
What, specifically, did Fauci say that could be interpreted as "Covid isn't real"?
1. "Doesn't have the death rate I publicly stated" is very different from what you claimed.
2. At that time, information about Covid was changing somewhat rapidly. By the time he testified to Congress weeks later, he may well have had better information. (Look, I am very much not a Fauci apologist. But you need to do better than this at finding reasons to condemn him.)
thataccount 16 hours ago [-]
1. Inflating death rates to claim something is a pandemic is not very different. It was at worst a "bad flu," which is what many Q posts were indicating. You don't need a lockdown for a "Bad flu". You also don't need masks.
2. You seem to think I need to do better than this, but if this were a trial what I have provided is sufficient to establish motive. The dude wanted to be famous, and didn't mind who died to get him there or what kind of lies he needed to tell to climb that mountain.
cosmicgadget 14 hours ago [-]
> It was at worst a "bad flu,"
Incorrect.
> The dude wanted to be famous
Hilarious on the heels of "I just won this trial I made up".
thataccount 7 hours ago [-]
Nuh uh is not a conversation, and it is clear he was tracking how famous he had become. The reason he was not on trial in a common way is because he was pardoned—which in this case it is clear is because he was involved in crimes against humanity.
cosmicgadget 6 hours ago [-]
Nuh uh is a fact, it doesn't require a conversation.
This DOJ would definitely be prosecuting him, that isn't saying very much.
thataccount 5 hours ago [-]
You are right about things not requiring a conversation--with you.
cosmicgadget 4 hours ago [-]
Zing.
"My symptoms were like a flu, this invalidates the mortality rate (which are fake anyway!) and hospital census (also fake!). Joe Rogan said we just needed to boof livestock dewormer and look at him, still alive. QED."
A conversation as old as time.
thataccount 4 hours ago [-]
I am talking about the Q posts. You are talking about everything else. So, whatever conversation it is you are having, it isn't with me. Maybe take some meds.
wodenokoto 16 hours ago [-]
So it’s like how France doesn’t exist or is like how the earth is flat?
“Many parents say that, thanks to the hoax, their children now feel confused about historical facts, the Nanjing Daily reported”
Great, lets make this useful … this specific nonsense will settle down and be proven to be a hoax and/or misinformation. An important component of parenting today is to raise kids who take claims presented on the internet with a large grain of salt. Rather than contrived examples in critical thinking exercises they might get in class or a textbook, parents now have a perfect, real example here to show their kids that online nonsense can look authoritative and be very widely believed, and yet still be false. Shields up. Less time online for kids. And don’t outsource your critical thinking to the online majority or to AI!
It is a series of science fiction novels in which a future China conquers the world and re-writes history as if the Tang dynasty never ended. The rulers present themselves as being the legitimate inheritors of a continuous Tang dynasty and all of western history from 900 CE onward is secret banned information.
Sort of the exact opposite of this conspiracy theory.
thataccount 18 hours ago [-]
That thing we don't want you to look at never existed.
20 hours ago [-]
DesaiAshu 22 hours ago [-]
"Claiming that the 300-year dynasty was actually a myth is akin to saying the American Civil War never happened"
Aren't republicans in Texas trying to rewrite history books to ignore lynchings and burnings of Black Wall Street and claim that slaves were treated pretty well?
Seems like every country has factions who do this - right?
rsynnott 21 hours ago [-]
There are cranks who claim that, essentially, the _middle ages_ did not happen. Claiming that things which obviously happened didn’t happen is one of the more common forms of crankery; motives vary (I think the Middle Ages deniers are generally a bit more innocent than the Texas Republicans, say)
zelda420 22 hours ago [-]
My daughter is a tx high school student and the books don’t mention slavery in context of the civil war. It’s framed as only a states rights issue, in which Texas is the honorable fighter of freedoms.
kjs3 19 hours ago [-]
It was a states rights issue...the right of those states to own slaves. If you read the articles of succession for each of the confederate states (the actual words the actual people who decided "screw that Union thing..." put on paper to justify what they are doing and sent to Washinton), every one of them explicitly states "we are doing this because you are threatening our right to own slaves". This is the "well ackshually..." argument used to pretend the Confederates were fighting a noble cause and the rest of the hypocrisy being shoveled about.
mmooss 21 hours ago [-]
Yet all these educated people keep lauding and moving to Texas?
jmclnx 21 hours ago [-]
And I am sure there is no mention that Slavery was the # 1 reason for Texas Succeeding from Mexico.
bilbo0s 21 hours ago [-]
In fairness, Texas is a place where they make elementary school kids stand up every morning and say the Pledge of Allegiance...
to the TEXAS flag.
Just pointing out that the educational experience in Texas is not necessarily indicative of what the educational experience in the rest of the US is like.
22 hours ago [-]
dj_gitmo 22 hours ago [-]
> Aren't republicans in Texas trying to rewrite history books to ignore lynchings and burnings of Black Wall Street and claim that slaves were treated pretty well?
I remember looking at the actual key points in the Texas curriculum and nothing seems that unusual. Some people we IMO nitpicking.
SpicyLemonZest 21 hours ago [-]
I don't think that's very much alike at all. Denying the existence of a major dynasty is like declaring that Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson didn't exist, and all the historical traditions and documents to the contrary were invented to cover up the two terms Jefferson Davis served in the White House. I've never seen even the most strenuous Lost Cause advocates say something like that, because why in the world would you?
duskwuff 19 hours ago [-]
> Denying the existence of a major dynasty is like declaring that Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Johnson didn't exist
There's a great difference of scale.
Lincoln died about 150 years ago. There are voluminous primary sources about Lincoln - e.g. photographs of him, original documents that he wrote, firsthand accounts of his actions, etc. We certainly don't know every detail of his life, but we do know a lot of it, and we're quite confident it's true.
The Tang dynasty, by contrast, fell over a thousand years ago. We know of it primarily through second- and third-hand histories and through interpretation of archaeological artifacts - much like our knowledge of Greek and Roman history, for instance. There are a lot of thinly covered areas, and many of the sources are biased; there's a lot more to be uncertain about.
GMoromisato 15 hours ago [-]
I get your point, but there are voluminous primary sources about the moon landings, and yet here we are.
ndjdkfmfk 22 hours ago [-]
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contingencies 22 hours ago [-]
Let's not get started on corners of the American internet... ask your favourite AI about "list of historical denial theories with US subscribers, including religious". No doubt longer and more amusing!
culi 22 hours ago [-]
birds aren't real, the earth is flat, jet fuel can't melt steel beams, apollo 11 landed in hollywood, and zuckerberg is a lizard
galleywest200 20 hours ago [-]
“Birds aren’t real” is fully and completely a meme for goofs.
Zuck I think is also just for goofs but the others yes indeed have true believers.
culi 19 hours ago [-]
Our politicians and leaders being lizard people absolutely has true believers. Zuckerberg specifically might've taken off as a meme amongst tech critical folk but the core idea comes from genuine conspiracies. Birds are real, I admit, is totally a joke but it flows so well in my comment
I think the bigger point here is that even the CCP, with it’s heavy-handed totalitarian controls on the Chinese web, isn’t able to entirely filter out misinformation.
bryan0 21 hours ago [-]
Not sure why you're getting down voted but this does seem like the key point. There obviously is a major challenge in avoiding conspiratorial nonsense in societies with strong freedom of speech, but in this example we have China facing something similar.
HeavenFox 18 hours ago [-]
Note the reason of this conspiracy: the founder of Tang dynasty is not of pure Han Chinese ethnicity. In the grand scheme, this is just part of the rise of Han nationalism in recent years, which had its roots in the nationalism rhetorics adopted by the Chinese state under Xi.
I'm sure you can see the parallels of this in the United States and Europe.
Drupon 20 hours ago [-]
"This thing challenges my preexisting biases about the CCP. The only conclusion must be that it is truly exceptional, never that I can eating from the pig trough of my country's propaganda."
Behold, the most educated and intellectually curious American, folks.
mmooss 21 hours ago [-]
In another headline, people under a certain age get most of their news from social media. It 'democratizes' it, said one person quoted.
It is more important than ever that we teach people to think critically and skeptically, and the necessity of empiricism (i.e., publicly verifiable evidence).
yanhangyhy 17 hours ago [-]
This article still pushes the typical "China bad" narrative, throughout which it attempts to disparage Chinese nationalism.
Take the incident mentioned in the piece: the Xi'an Culture and Tourism Bureau later clarified that no one had actually made such phone calls. The reporter simply cited an unverified online comment without doing any fact-checking.
This is a classic tactic used to smear an opponent—exaggerating their views to an absurd degree to weaponize public disgust against them. In reality, aside from this fabricated "phone call" incident, conspiracy theories claiming the Tang dynasty didn't exist have never received any attention from mainstream media or the general public in China.
Its real-world impact is virtually zero. Following this bizarre logic, the author would be better off reporting on how praise for German Nazism spreads on Chinese social media(but i know CNN dont have the balls).
cosmicgadget 14 hours ago [-]
The beginning of the article says it doesn't have mainstream traction. Not sure about the "China bad" thing, we seem to have the Han nationalists vs the mainstream who wants ethnic unity and 5000 years of unbroken history vs the internet memers and people who "did their own research".
Markoff 10 hours ago [-]
One corner of US internet is insisting that the Earth is flat
same information value, why is this even here and not flagged into oblivion?
hyruo 10 hours ago [-]
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timmit 22 hours ago [-]
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Alephinitesimal 20 hours ago [-]
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thoma_ai 18 hours ago [-]
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bip-bop-robot 22 hours ago [-]
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UltraSane 22 hours ago [-]
Your comment doesn't seem to be relevant to the link at all.
ForOldHack 22 hours ago [-]
"I firmly believe that there is an all-knowing being guiding the universe, except for certain parts of New Jersey." -Woody Allen.
epsteingpt 16 hours ago [-]
China Bros - here is visual PROOF of the Tang dynasty.
There are also histories written just after the Tang Dynasty had fallen. It was considered good form for a new dynasty to write a historical review of the previous one, and there are two retrospectives on Tang, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Book_of_Tang
And there is ironclad evidence from foreign sources. Among others, Japanese histories detail the journeys of emissaries to the Tang Court: https://web.archive.org/web/20260315181529/https://japansoci...
So the theory is bait, and hard to take seriously.
But I'll give it credit for hijacking a genuinely interesting scholarly premise: What is taken quite seriously is the notion that China's first dynasty -- the Xia Dynasty -- never existed. It is of rather mythic proportions; later Chinese would speak of Xia the way Romans would speak of Troy. And there is very little evidence to support its existence. The Shang Dynasty is also supported by rather scant evidence -- and is also mythic, though obviously less so than the Xia.
Worth noting that both the Xia and Shang are exceedingly ancient -- roughly 2000 BC to 1000 BC between them -- unlike the Tang, which fell around 900 AD and is thus middle-of-the-pack by Chinese dynastic standards.
Shang, and all of the post-dynasty collapse centuries like The Spring and Autumn Period, were not great times to live in. Dismal and evil vibes, for the most part, unless you happen to be a mighty hero or bandit-lord who believes that he can conquer the age. Even so, most of them ended up in soup pots.
Notably the Tang Dynasty in China was concurrent with the Taika Reforms, Nara period & beginning of the Heian period in Japan.
There's some truth to this. The Japanese preserved certain Tang Dynasty customs which were lost to China, and they have some of the best collections of Tang-era artifacts.
This line of thought was, however, used in very unfortunate WWII-era propaganda, like "we have to invade China to rescue its civilization, only we can do this!"
I'd argue its difficult to find major aspects of Japanese culture that don't trace back to ancient China (maybe the language, eating raw food and sumo)
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Shang#/media/File:Shang_d...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceroses_in_ancient_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yana_Rhinoceros_Horn_Site
Shang being an villain fits this narrative.
There are some nuances about this. We know that there are multiple developed cities (and likely monarchies, given there are palace-like ruins) around or before Xia era. It's just that we don't know which one is so-called Xia Dynasty. But it doesn't meant that there were only small tribes and suddenly Shang came out of nowhere.
There were robber barons in early Norman England. It's just that we don't know which one is so-called Robin Hood... when in reality it's most likely just a pop myth.
Including a rather unusual battle between the Tang Dynasty and the Abbasid Caliphate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talas
It's recorded that the Caliph, on hearing of the battle, said "What is this? A crossover episode?"
A timely reminder that, damn, China is olllldddd.
China proper starts about 1000 BC, so China is quite a bit younger than Europe. (Whatever "Europe" is.)
As far as I'm concerned we're all equally ancient descendants from LUCA.
You have introduced a comparison, which thus begs the following questions:
1. What is the event that defines "China proper"? 2. What is the event that defines "Europe [proper]" to you?
I think this thread is referring to record keeping. In Europe and especially in the mid-east, when an area was conquered, seems the trend was to destroy written records.
I think when that happened in China, a lot written records survived, so it has the appearance of being older.
There are people who believe that Trump won in 2020, that vaccines cause autism, and that the Holocaust is a hoax. You cannot reason people out of an idea they didn't use reason to arrive at.
Sometimes the things they accept is facts are merely delusions, of course, but that doesn't mean they don't reason. It just means that their reason is based on delusions.
Otoh, I also have met a number of people that when you ask "because why" freeze up as they simply have no basis at all and don't understand themselves why they came to hold a position.
And we can't forget that wood and witches are the only things that float because Science.
There's just a substantial bias where people assume all 'new knowledge' is wrong. Probably correct most the time, but still often wrong.
Troy was indeed largely fabricated though! Really I think that's of a piece with stuff being, y'know, really old. There are big holes in Sumerian and Egyption history too (though the latter helped out a ton by digging secret tombs and hiding them really well). Post-classical Mayan history is pretty suspect in a lot of places, etc...
Its just as silly as phantom time and covers almost exactly the same period. The motive is possibly racist which makes it more sinister.
I have to admit - Expanding Earth is hard to debunk!
I think because like Flat Earth many of the observations and elements therein are accurate - they just get the overall picture wrong.
Like stealing the ball with 4 sec left running down the court no defense in sight for the winning layup and missing - comically bouncing off the backboard.
Alas, I believe most crackpots mean well, they just aren’t very good at the sport
Likewise, flying in a plane for any distance and seeing the course is identical to if you pulled a string tight against a globe (give or take). I suppose pilots could choose to fly in an arch to keep the secret, but eventually some capitalist has got to spill the beans to cut costs, right?
Also: the southern hemisphere.
It doesn’t really matter if the earth is flat or not, for them it’s about being part of a community of people who believe in something that society tells them is wrong. There is no changing minds besides the 1 in a million you hear about and so all the calculations you could do would never work, sadly.
My daughter did the shadow stick experiment when she was 14 (for GCSE astronomy), we have lived in different countries so have observed the differences in constellations for ourselves, and we speak to people around the world anyway.
The more interesting phenomenon is that we are able to agree on anything at all, it's not exactly our strongest instinct. Reading through HN, for example, the longest comment chains are a series of disagreements. But we build resources like Wikipedia and science journals, which also use disagreement as an engine for generating a more correct understanding. Its a strange and hopeful aspect of human societies.
But they belong to a bigger trend which questions the value of experts and institutional knowledge. This could either send us into a dark age, or challenge a better class of experts and institutional knowledge. My money is on the latter. Few things improve without some kind of challenge.
It’s fine, and healthy, to disagree on how best to deal with the world as it exists, but if we can’t agree on reality itself, compromise and progress are so much more challenging.
But to help you understand, rewriting the past to sustain power is the type of thing that degenerates into genocide for example.
In the short term it might look innocuous, but if corrupting truth and suspend basic moral and ethic values on something as basic as History, what other basic human values are you willing to suspend because you don't like how something feels?
This is the breeding ground for racial supremacists, ethnophobia, etc. Terrible stuff.
And you don't need to go into the past to see the consequences, Ukraine is fighting for their existence because a group of people in Russia don't want to acknowledge that a ethnic group they deem inferior can have better chances at thriving than them, to the point of denying Ukrainians existence all together.
Spread flat earth theories, get influencers to question if sunscreen is actually harmful, etc. Spread enough contradictory information so that gradually, people don't have any idea what to believe, and then they become susceptible to political misinformation, or just become completely politically disengaged.
It is not a sign of a healthy society at all, it is a disease.
That was until the morning after the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia. Because that morning, a huge proportion of the most popular european conspiracy, anti-vaxxer and alt-right twitter accounts started pushing the same 5 kremlin talking points. It was way too crudely done to be organic, they had clearly received their marching orders.
We seriously need to evaluate this “talking points” accusation lol. Propaganda accusations in general, they’re mindless and kills actual discussion.
It made lots of people who had previously believed in their bullshit wake up and take notice.
Additionally, they've redefined that a pandemic is (removing severity from the definition), additionally it's expanding way from its traditional geopolitical framework and also what were recommendations are now becoming legally binding mandates that supersede sovereignty.
So, yes, people are overreacting but the WHO and people who suppressed truthful but contrarian claims during the pandemic, share some of the blame.
2009 pandemic H1N1 was not severe, and was called a pandemic.
Over a million Americans died, but OK, that's not a severe problem...
What jurisdiction and enforcement mechanism?
The context was weird, the person pushing it was very passionate about the subject, and since I certainly don't know all that much about Chinese history from the period, I just smiled and nodded. Apparently this is a bigger thing?
> In September 2020, major Russian politician and academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences Sergey Glazyev publicly proposed Fomenko's New Chronology as a "reliable support for the formation of modern ideology that consolidates Russian society"
And related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarian_Empire
I mean it's a nationalist ideology - any connection with reality is coincidental.
its amazing, and one of the most thorough and clever conspiracy theories and it has no lack of scope and ambition. Jesus was made up based on a 12th century Byzantine Emperor is almost as good as Suleiman being Solomon, and lots of otherwise reasonable seem very ready to believe conspiracy theories about Jesus (Dan Brown made a lot of money out of people who thought the Da Vinci Code theories were plausible).
Kasparov was a proponent!
If you actually read the article, you'd be directing your vitriol at the Nanjing Daily and "The Paper, a media outlet affiliated with the Shanghai government."
This feels more plausible if you've only ever encountered pigeons and at some distance. If you've owned a parrot or some chickens, it is very apparent that this is not a spy camera. In fact the word I'd use for chickens is "saurian". They're clearly just lizards with feathers, if I didn't know their evolutionary story it would still scream at me when I see one laying on a rock in the sun that this is a lizard.
https://www.perkins.org/qa-a-factual-look-at-helen-kellers-a...
It’s only 1729! Let’s goo, I mean:
Come on ye lads!
Of course, this phenomenon is by no means unique to these two countries. I know a Japanese author who has a small but dedicated following for his argument that nuclear weapons don't exist: https://books.google.com/books/about/Death_Object.html?id=Mw...
Narrative warfare… I guess the question is, what isn’t “narrative warfare”?
I'll write a book about it. See you in your local bookstore!
Edit: clarified which part of the post I was referencing.
If you search on Google, there's a slew of Chinese restaurants in the US named "Ming Dynasty." If you were in the SF Peninsula in the 80's and 90's, the one on Embarcadero and 101 drew well known chefs from Hong Kong during its heyday. Conversely, Google knows of two "Ching" or "Qin Dynasty" restaurants in the US. Many Han Chinese have always looked down on the Ching Dynasty as illegitimate colonialists.
This particular issue is a sore point with the CCP with respect to Hong Kong. During the crackdowns in 2019, mainland propaganda justified the crackdown as de-colonization. They called the British takeover an invasion to force subjugation through mass drugging (opium).
In response to this, many protestors appealed to Han-centrism. They argued that the Ching were already an illegitimate colonizing force, and blame them for everything that led up to Western colonization. This includes everything from weakened military might to failed trade/war negotiations, to anti-opium crackdowns. If the British broke in, it's because the Manchus left the door open. And by legitimizing the Ching Dynasty, you have an indirect trail of responsibility to the CCP themselves.
This Hong Kong link is why this Tang issue is not a joke to the CCP.
Final note because I have to pre-emptively address this on social media: If you feel like you need to jump in with a generic anti-colonial comment, don't. Hongkongers' views of being British subjects, especially from 1970's on, should absolutely not be seen through Western, especially modern progressive PoV. TL;DR - the majority, often vast majority, of Hongkongers wished to remain under British rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Dynasty_(band)
They lived the Spinal Tap lifestyle before Spinal Tap.
It’s not that hard to pin down. Nobody seriously doubts that the Tang dynasty existed; this was mostly a joke made to satirize the Western Pseudohistory Theory: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Pseudohistory_Theory
That said, plenty of Chinese people genuinely believe Chinese civilization has been the most advanced since antiquity, and that the sophistication of ancient Greek and Western civilization should be questioned.
> In China’s official narrative, the country suffered a “century of humiliation” of foreign invasions, starting with the first opium war in 1840 and ending only with Mao’s rise to power in 1949. But the 1644 view—cheekily expressed by some online as “three centuries of humiliation”—argues that subjugation began with the Qing. According to this school, the Qing were anti-Han interlopers and, making matters worse, feckless in repelling foreign forces.
> Dredging up all this history is uncomfortable for the party. The territorial boundaries claimed by modern China—including Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Taiwan—were brought into the Chinese empire by the Qing, not the Ming. Grievances about the Manchus also cut against the ideal of ethnic harmony advanced by the party. Although much of what forms modern Chinese identity is derived from Han traditions, it is unseemly to talk openly about the dominance of this one ethnic group, which accounts for 90% of the Chinese population. The party looks askance at “Han chauvinism”, believing, with reason, that it may lead to more resentment from non-Han groups.
[1]: https://www.economist.com/china/2026/07/20/why-criticism-of-...
- birds aren't real
- Flat Earth
- Atlantis (did Plato made it up or not?)
- years 800-1000 were completely made up so some guy could be crowned king in the year 1000
- DNA evidence shows ancient Egyptians are Eastern Europeans
Is this significant? I never saw anyone talking about it on my side of corner.
But, It's not really that surprising. A significant part of human civilization still believes that we humans were created by beings who live somewhere in the sky/atmosphere, and these beings are watching our every move to punish or reward us, and you beg really really hard, they'll help you (if they didn't, you ain't begging hard enough).
So clearly this is rather important to some people.
I assumed that any "influencer" could be easily googled, but I cannot find literally anything. Or Google censors their name?
Not sure how HN's symbol stripper handles them, but here's a try:
> “It is a way for people to attack the established authorities. It is almost like saying ‘those so-called experts are nothing special. They have all been misleading people. I am the one who understands the truth, and I have exposed them all.’”
China got it's own form of Qanon.
Historical revisionism, random people :angry: :barf:
http://V2ex.com
They say a lie can travel around the world while the truth is still lacing up its boots. Part of the reason these things are viral is because their ridiculous nature demands attention. And that attention alone is enough to generate influence.
2. At that time, information about Covid was changing somewhat rapidly. By the time he testified to Congress weeks later, he may well have had better information. (Look, I am very much not a Fauci apologist. But you need to do better than this at finding reasons to condemn him.)
2. You seem to think I need to do better than this, but if this were a trial what I have provided is sufficient to establish motive. The dude wanted to be famous, and didn't mind who died to get him there or what kind of lies he needed to tell to climb that mountain.
Incorrect.
> The dude wanted to be famous
Hilarious on the heels of "I just won this trial I made up".
This DOJ would definitely be prosecuting him, that isn't saying very much.
"My symptoms were like a flu, this invalidates the mortality rate (which are fake anyway!) and hospital census (also fake!). Joe Rogan said we just needed to boof livestock dewormer and look at him, still alive. QED."
A conversation as old as time.
Great, lets make this useful … this specific nonsense will settle down and be proven to be a hoax and/or misinformation. An important component of parenting today is to raise kids who take claims presented on the internet with a large grain of salt. Rather than contrived examples in critical thinking exercises they might get in class or a textbook, parents now have a perfect, real example here to show their kids that online nonsense can look authoritative and be very widely believed, and yet still be false. Shields up. Less time online for kids. And don’t outsource your critical thinking to the online majority or to AI!
It is a series of science fiction novels in which a future China conquers the world and re-writes history as if the Tang dynasty never ended. The rulers present themselves as being the legitimate inheritors of a continuous Tang dynasty and all of western history from 900 CE onward is secret banned information.
Sort of the exact opposite of this conspiracy theory.
Aren't republicans in Texas trying to rewrite history books to ignore lynchings and burnings of Black Wall Street and claim that slaves were treated pretty well?
Seems like every country has factions who do this - right?
to the TEXAS flag.
Just pointing out that the educational experience in Texas is not necessarily indicative of what the educational experience in the rest of the US is like.
I remember this controversy from a while and IIRC I don't think this is accurate. For one thing, they teach that slavery was a central role. https://www.npr.org/2018/11/16/668557179/texas-students-will...
I remember looking at the actual key points in the Texas curriculum and nothing seems that unusual. Some people we IMO nitpicking.
There's a great difference of scale.
Lincoln died about 150 years ago. There are voluminous primary sources about Lincoln - e.g. photographs of him, original documents that he wrote, firsthand accounts of his actions, etc. We certainly don't know every detail of his life, but we do know a lot of it, and we're quite confident it's true.
The Tang dynasty, by contrast, fell over a thousand years ago. We know of it primarily through second- and third-hand histories and through interpretation of archaeological artifacts - much like our knowledge of Greek and Roman history, for instance. There are a lot of thinly covered areas, and many of the sources are biased; there's a lot more to be uncertain about.
Zuck I think is also just for goofs but the others yes indeed have true believers.
I'm sure you can see the parallels of this in the United States and Europe.
Behold, the most educated and intellectually curious American, folks.
It is more important than ever that we teach people to think critically and skeptically, and the necessity of empiricism (i.e., publicly verifiable evidence).
Take the incident mentioned in the piece: the Xi'an Culture and Tourism Bureau later clarified that no one had actually made such phone calls. The reporter simply cited an unverified online comment without doing any fact-checking.
This is a classic tactic used to smear an opponent—exaggerating their views to an absurd degree to weaponize public disgust against them. In reality, aside from this fabricated "phone call" incident, conspiracy theories claiming the Tang dynasty didn't exist have never received any attention from mainstream media or the general public in China.
Its real-world impact is virtually zero. Following this bizarre logic, the author would be better off reporting on how praise for German Nazism spreads on Chinese social media(but i know CNN dont have the balls).
same information value, why is this even here and not flagged into oblivion?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_%28drink_mix%29
Many ancient flavors and notoriety was achieved in that dynasty. Mango Tang was my favorite.